Harlequin Shrimp Larvae

[charlesr1958]

24 May 07 - Am dating this so I can keep track of their age, that is, if they make it beyond being larvae this time. Able to collect about 100 larvae.

Last night, while on my way to bed at 2am, I happened to stop and check the shrimp tank and caught the female broadcasting her young. I was at first going to put the larvae into one of the grow out tanks compartments, but decided to try adding them directly to the copepod culture tank this time. Previously, I had tried using baby brine shrimp but lost the last batch of harlequin larvae after only one day. The only thing that I could think of as to the reason, was that the larvae were spending their night (no lights) at the bottom of the tank and getting fouled with detritus that I had failed to previously siphon out. This time, as I mentioned, I put them directly into my desk top tank which I had originaly set up to maintain one small elegance coral, but after noting the pod population it had, I put the coral into my reef tank and started dosing the desktop tank with phyto. Which drove the pod population into high gear. I was relieved to note this morning, that the larvae actualy do spend the night down in the sand. When I turned on the light this morning, a cloud of larvae drifted up out of the sand and to the surface. I also have the airstone on a low flow and the bubbles contained with my bubble trap design, this keeps the rest of the tank very gentle and allows the larvae to slowly drift about when they are not chasing the light.
These larvae are also what I would consider to be very large compared to other shrimp larvae I have seen. Also very developed in comparrison as well. I can easily make out their basic shrimp design with the naked eye.

http://www.goldinc.com/~chuck/temp17.jpg

The sand used was ensured to not have any larger predators such as fan worms and the such, the rock used was sterilized and cured in freshwater to also ensure it was predator free. The water is hazy due to phytoplankton and have high hopes that this setup will be the trick to getting these larvae beyond their critical second day molt.

http://www.goldinc.com/~chuck/temp18.jpg

This is the swarm right at the waters surface, note how they are large enough that you can catch enough detail that they are indeed shrimp.

http://www.goldinc.com/~chuck/temp8.jpg

http://www.goldinc.com/~chuck/temp9.jpg

http://www.goldinc.com/~chuck/temp16.jpg

[BrianPlankis]

Great pictures Chuck! Good luck :)

Brian

[charlesr1958]

Thanks Brian,

Am happy to report that after an entire day now, they all seem to be doing well and have noted they appear to do well in very gentle water, moving about slowly using the legs and only "jet" with their tails when startled. They also seem to be showing an interest in food now. Was just watching one of the larvae chasing a mid sized copepod as if trying to grab it over and over. I also get the feeling that having a large breeding copepod population is a must as the adult copepods are just too large for them. Having a lot of baby copepods might just do the trick. Am really holding my breath with this batch. In at about two hours (9pm), we are heading down to the ocean to try and collect more pods using a flashlight to attract them to where I can net them with my handy dandy net made from a pair of Linda's nylon stockings...lol Am taking an extra bucket along to swish / shake live rocks in and see what I come home with in the water as well.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Well, it appears I am not going to get anywhere with the larvae untill I come up with a kreisel and prevent the deaths and damage done by air bubbles. Since I have very limited options, I have adapted Andy's design to modify my little desk top tank and will have it completed within the first week of June. During that time, I will be picking up two more mated adult pairs so as to increase the larval production to up my odds of success. I'm also going to spend an entire day in the water collecting a species of copepod that remain as tight groups suspended in the water column instead of trying to use the species that prefer to crawl the surfaces of the tank.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/kreisel.jpg

Since this bubble trap is already in place I plan to leave it as is so as to prevent any bubbles going into the small powerhead pump and excessive spray.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/airstonetrap1.jpg

So far, the longest I have been able to maintain any larvae is two days, which I (for now) blame on their tank's design. It was however interesting to note their development in just those few hours.

This first photo is one at about ten minutes after hatching.
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/harlequinlarvae1.1.jpg

This next one is about 48 hours old. Note how the eyes are now more "stalked" as well as having better developed mouth parts as well. I observed a few of them at this stage actively stalking and grabbing onto small copepods, which I assumed they ate.
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/harlequinlarvae2.1.jpg


Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Howdy Chuck! Good luck with the little guys. If you use my design, I would use the largest mesh size you can get away with. I finally hooked mine into the system for long-term tests a couple of weeks ago and my mesh size is so fine that the screen fouls within just a few hours. I'm thinking of trying to hook up a powerhead in the overflow compartment pointed at the screen to see if that helps. I don't know what it'll do to the circular flow pattern, though.

Other than the mesh fouling, I'm really happy with the way it's working. The flow pattern works exactly as I wanted it to.

[charlesr1958]

Thanks for the heads up Andy, for lack of mess material, and since I use it as a net to collect plankton, I was going to go with panty hose material as it is fine enough to keep things where they belong, yet still allows a good water flow. I also plan to make the screen opening as large as feasable to keep the water flow going through it much less forcefull as the water will not be squeezing through a small opening increasing the flow rate, which should cut down on trapped debris or at least, allow the directed pump flow to keep up with clearing it. I also plan to have a control valve to be able to adjust the water flow to get the right action going.
Also, thanks again for all of your help!

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

Chuck,

I don't know if you saw this, but Gary brought this to my attention in the Data Mine:

http://www.sihawaii.com/sydkraul/harly.html

Brian

[charlesr1958]

Yeah, I saw that quite some time ago but found it lacking any info or I should say, specifics, which I am trying to work out myself. Hopefully sometime next week I should see a new hatch as the female generaly does so every three weeks or so, this clutch of eggs seems to be quite a bit larger also, maybe I got a somewhat young shrimp and she is just now coming into her own.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Well, so much for what is known about harlequin egg/hatching times! Anything I could find about that topic said that they hatch out after about 4 weeks, well, I just got caught with my proverbial pants down since the female is broadcasting her spawn right now (8 June at 11:30am), which is only two weeks from her last spawn (24 may), that and being 11am with lights on also blows the theory that they only broadcast their spawn during darkness. I thought I had two more weeks to get more copepods going and have none useable right now, which means I have to make a mad dash to the ocean and try to catch some, even though the tides and weather is not all that great for doing so.
oh, and the kreisel I built is PERFECT!, the gentle circular motion keeps all the larvae suspended in the gentle center, those that do hit the flow, do so gently also and never hit anything solid. But I am again, not holding my breath with these larvae as I am still on a learning / preparation curve, but will of course do my best.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Well, good luck buddy! Gee another excuse to hit the ocean.... :)

[reeformadness]

Congratulations. Good luck finding some copepods. I am very excited about this project. Harlequin shrimp are beautiful animals.

[charlesr1958]

Well, I lucked out, I hit the water, got out into the kelp, and the place was THICK with swarming copepods!, I just brought home thousands of them, half of which went in with the larvae and the other into the pod compartment for breeding.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/harlequinlarvaemass.jpg

I just now took the above photo and had to use the flash since the background is so dark, made their little eyes glow..lol, that and you can see some of the pods as well now.

oh, and while I was busy with the shrimp and pods, my wife was watching and says "hon, whats that?" while pointing into the reef tank, I look up to discover that our clownfish had just laid down a brood of eggs as well!!! First time event for them (us). Knowing my wife, I will now have to try and save the babys when they hatch and will probably pitch them in with the larvae and see what happens, although I hesitate to do that and may just "pretend" to save them and allow the corals to have a good little fishy dinner that day...:D I'm just in no way ready to deal with fish larvae now at the same time.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/clowneggs1.jpg

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/clowneggs2.jpg

oh! and while I was at the beach, I also picked up my long fish net that a fisherman made for me so that I can catch my own fish for the tank now, and... when he saw a bucket full of pods and asked what they were for, he then told me that the little island just offshore from us is LOADED with harlequin shrimp, see if I buy my next pair of breeders hey!....lol

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Nice Chuck! Sounds like a great day. I'm honestly jealous.

I've been meeting all of my neighbors today. I've had to ask them all if the saw the b$^#$%^$ who stole three of the wheels off my truck last night. Not only that, but he jacked the thing just under the sheet metal and bent my fender all over the place. I guess if your ripping it off, you're not terribly concerned with finding a good place for the jack.

[charlesr1958]

Dang, that is horrible! I just never can understand thieves or inconsiderate "humans", If its not mine, its not mine, how hard of a concept is that? Well, I just wanted to say that I was sorry to hear that you had a pretty crappy day. Hopefully insurance covers such a thing.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Thanks, Chuck! I'm not sure if insurance does or not. It's my old beater truck ('69 Bronco) and I don't know if I have any theft insurance on it or not.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. How about more shrimp photos? :)

[charlesr1958]

Beater or not, that still pisses me off to hear of such things, Peaple!

Had to put my camera down to reply, was just heading downstairs to try and get a movie of the kreisel / larvae. As for photos, have to wait to see if they get past day two since I have those shots already. So far so good though, Prior to the kreisel, day one would see 50 percent losses, day two, they would be all gone, Now with the kreisel, day one and I can not note any losses.

Edit to add: Will have to wait for nightfall, the black background creates a mirror and all you can see if the reflection of the other side of the room...lol

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Wow! Great to hear! No losses! I hope it keeps up.

[reeformadness]

I found a couple articles on shrimp culture...not sure if you've seen them before

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/feature.htm

http://www.educacion.uanl.mx/publicaciones/maricultura/vi/pdf/A18.pdf

[charlesr1958]

Thanks, thats exactly the type of info I need!

On a high and low note today:

The harlequin larvae went through their first molt (day two as usual) and I lost at least 60 percent of them. Those that survived are just laying / clinging onto the bottom kreisel baffle, so much so that I though they too were dead and pulled one out for exam, it was alive, but was not doing the usual "tail scoot" and instead was just paddling away with its "legs". I don't know what to make of it. Are they just recovering? Are they busy eating a pod and drop out to do so? Are they dieing? Am at a loss as I have no info on what is normal or not.
Oh a high note, I hit the water today and collected at least 10,000 cyclops copepods, my one gallon bucket was thick with them! The kreisel is packed with pods, so food is not going to be an issue, and the pod compartment has an equal number for breeding of them.
Then, I noticed in my sexy shrimp tank, that there were a few larvae as well, once I put a white plastic spoon in to snag one, the white background of the spoon revealed a great many more! So I just spooned out 60 or so sexy shrimp larvae and put them into the kreisel as well. After an exam on one of them as well, they appear to be at the 2 day mark as well. Which means that sexy shrimp can spawn every two weeks as well!
The clownfish eggs are developing quickly but I have no way to raise them, no rotifers available and not ready for that endeavour either, although my wife is insisting that when they do hatch out, I have to try and catch them out of the reef tank and put them into the kreisel as well..., hmmmm, like thats going to do any good, but at least I won't have to sleep on the couch....lol

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

I hate to tell you this, Chuck, but as long as you're willing to hit the ocean and collect copepods, you can keep those clowns. They will likely start feeding on the copepod nauplii, but will eventually move up and eat the adults. I'm not sure of the size of the copepods you have, but the problem you might run into is if the adults are really close to the mouth size of the clown larvae, but a little too big. They'll try to eat them and wind up choking. But, yeah, you can pretty much raise anything with some part of the life cycle of calanoids. Okay, some larvae might start a little smaller (ciliates or something), but you have pretty close to the bottom of the food chain there.

Good luck!

[charlesr1958]

Cool, will give it a try then, who knows...lol

Thanks!

["Umm, fish?"]

Sorry, you have cyclopoids there. But planktonic copepods, just the same.

:)

[reeformadness]

No problem. If you have access to Aquaculture then I can give you a few more references with some wonderful system designs (mostly by Ricardo Calado). I plan on implementing one of them myself when I graduate to raising planktonic larvae. You can also get Aquaculture if you have access to ScienceDirect.

["Umm, fish?"]

Please do! I would love to see the references. All the back issues are at my local univ. library.

[charlesr1958]

This will probably be my last update for quite some time now as I have lost ALL larvae, including the sexy shrimp! Which tells me that I am not ready, or was not ready. Having to rush for food, and the delay in doing so surely did not help, that and the kreisel tank was just filled up for the first time the day before the hatch. At least this next two weeks while I wait for yet another batch will give me and the kreisel some time to get our acts together. I'll be happy if I can just get beyond day two for once!!! oh well, I have the rest of my life to figure this out.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Oh, no. Sorry, Chuck!

[reeformadness]

Very sorry to hear that. Well here are some references that might help. These might ought to end up in the miner forum but here they are:

Calado et al. 2007. A recirculated maturation system for marine ornamental decapods. Aquaculture 263: 68-74

Calado et al. 2003. A rearing system for the culture of ornamental
decapod crustacean larvae. Aquaculture 218: 329-339.

Here's three more about ornamental shrimp, but not specifically system design.

Calado et al. 2005. Effects of temperature, density, and diet on development, survival, settlement synchronism, and fatty acid profile of the ornamental shrimp Lysmata seticaudata. Aquaculture 245:221-237.

Rhyne and Lin. 2004. Effects of different diets on larval development in a
peppermint shrimp (Lysmata sp. (Risso)) Aquaculture Res. 35: 1179-1185.

Zhang et al. 1998. Mating Behavior and Spawning of the Banded Coral Shrimp Stenopus hispidus in the Laboratory. Jour. Crust. Bio. 18(3):511-518.

All of these can be found online with proper access.

[charlesr1958]

Thanks! and after having a hitch hiker shrimp larvae settle out today that came in with the pods, tells me that water quality is not the issue, that and the pods are doing great. I'm starting to get convinced that having the larvae wait even half a day to have access to food is the problem. I feel that the next batch will stand a better chance as I am fully ready for them this time. Lots of food, a working kreisel, and good water quality should tip the odds in my favor a bit more now.

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

Crowding can be an issue when trying to raise invertebrate larvae, between species and within the same species. Some of the FAO documents for the Trochus spawning mention trying to raise only a very small portion of the fertilized Trochus eggs leading to better success.

I'm guessing the same applies to shrimp larvae and I would suggest focusing on a single species and relatively low numbers. There is always a temptation to try to save as many larvae as possible and that is the good ethical thing to do, but keeping things simple will help reduce the number of variables you need to deal with in figuring out how to raise them.

Of course I understand the wife wanting you to try to raise the fish as well. My wife is quite attached to our two clowns. Good luck Chuck!

Brian

[aggie4231]

Here is a good article on raising ornamental shrimp, I can also go over and ask questions(next door from work).


http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/tamu/tamug01003.pdf

["Umm, fish?"]

I know that one of the shrimp hitchikers settled out for you, but ... any clue what your iodine level might be?

[charlesr1958]

Dr. Ron suggested the same (lower numbers) to avoid the crowding issue, which makes sense since I do notice them grabbing onto each other all of the time and often wondered if they are doing each other harm in some manner. Next batch, half are going into the kreisel and the other half is going into the pod breeding compartment, I figure why waste the other half and who knows, might I stumble into some dumb luck. Am going to pull that hitch hiking shrimp today as well, don't need another "possible" going against me.

Aggie - Thanks for the link!

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

I know that one of the shrimp hitchikers settled out for you, but ... any clue what your iodine level might be?

Not a clue, no such test kits here and couldn't find a reliable or trustworthy iodide to begin with. I'm just hoping that with the daily water changes with the reef tank, and it getting weekly / twice weekly water changes itself (with NSW), that I am replacing what ever used elements. I spent a week trying to find epsom salt and even the pharmacys don't carry anything like it, there is some home made "rock" salts, but theres no ingredient listings or any other listings I should say other than a little sticker that has hand written "rock salt" on it...lol Thats the only curse of being here, all the life I could shake a net at, yet have to improvise the most basics of equipment or supplies. If not for your gift of phyto cultures, I would be at a dead stand still banging my head on the walls...lol

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

Here is a good article on raising ornamental shrimp, I can also go over and ask questions(next door from work).


http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/tamu/tamug01003.pdf

I do like how in this article they let the adult release the fry and then the adult is removed, makes a lot of sense as the adult can handle the stress of transfer a lot easier than the larvae. Not sure how you could do that with your setup though Chuck. Hum.....

Brian

[charlesr1958]

I went through that article a number of times, and as far as their equipment goes, it is way beyond what I could get here or set up in a small apartment. I had at first worried about handling the larvae and take the pains to gently spoon them out one or two at a time and put them into their compartment. I figured siphoning would be to traumatic for them. oh, and a white plastic spoon works best as they really stand out against the white.
I also noted how they use liquified shrimp as a food source as well. Something I am going to give a try as well since that is the ONE thing that I can do here. Not worried about water quality as I give them a water change every day without fail. Who knows, might the clownfish fry use it as a first food as well untill they can swallow pods. Have to give a try at least since its the only option I have, but I do keep a lot of pods in the kreisel hoping they spawn enough to provide rotifer sized offspring of their own.
I think THE big "thing" for me, is making what I have successfull, that way, it would mean a great many more hobbyist could do it as well then. How many hobbyists would really set up a dozen 40 gallon tubs? What I want to do is give someone who has a single pair of spawning shrimp a good chance at raising them without setting up a commercial operation.
Okay, just sitting here typing, I already thought of a way to do that transfer method the article stated, a simple plastic tube with enough holes drilled into it could be set down inside the kreisel compartment a day or two before the larvae are due, and drop the female shrimp into it. Might be easier on my old back than spooning for two hours...lol, but I wonder if seperating a mated pair of harlequin comes at the risk of their losing their attachment to each other after a few days of being apart? ...hmmmmm, my brain is starting to hurt!

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

I think THE big "thing" for me, is making what I have successfull, that way, it would mean a great many more hobbyist could do it as well then. How many hobbyists would really set up a dozen 40 gallon tubs? What I want to do is give someone who has a single pair of spawning shrimp a good chance at raising them without setting up a commercial operation.


Exactly what DIBS is about Chuck, performing on small scale first and sharing the knowledge. That way individual hobbyists can do it and if some large commercial hatchery wants to adapt it to a larger scale, that is good too.

Okay, just sitting here typing, I already thought of a way to do that transfer method the article stated, a simple plastic tube with enough holes drilled into it could be set down inside the kreisel compartment a day or two before the larvae are due, and drop the female shrimp into it. Might be easier on my old back than spooning for two hours...lol, but I wonder if seperating a mated pair of harlequin comes at the risk of their losing their attachment to each other after a few days of being apart? ...hmmmmm, my brain is starting to hurt!
Chuck

Some good questions and glad to see my questions are causing your brain to hurt, yet another goal of DIBS :D

Brian

[charlesr1958]

After thinking about it, the transfer of the egg laden female directly to the kreisel or larvae tank would be even easier (than what is done with other species) since the adult shrimp have no interest in eating their young, or any young for that matter there would be no need to pen her up. Once she spawns, just scoop her up again with a small cup (no nets!!) and put her back. Once I get past the larvae issues (if ever), I will give it a try and see how the adults react during the reunion. Since they are in small tanks to begin with, spooning the larvae is no big deal, and would actualy be easier than trying to get them out of the kreisel to cut their numbers.
I took todays photo (day 5) of one of the clownfish eggs that are laying in the kreisel and noted some extremely small copepod like creatures crawling on the frys egg/membrane case. So small, that the fish fry could easily fit 20 of them in its mouth at one time. Am assuming they are newly hatched "cyclop" copepods, since they do look very pod like.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

I took a small water sample from the kreisel today and noted the same "critters" again as I saw earlier. This time I tried to take some photos after putting them in the freezer to get them to sit still but they are so small that the details are lost in the photo. But... I did a google search for copepod nauplii and by comparing online photos, I was happy to learn that the water is loaded with cyclopoida nauplii, that and the adults are doing great. I've also learned, thanks to Syd at pacific planktonics, who at one time bred hawaiin harlequins that my earlier failures were due to water quality and not food since the larvae can go up to five days after hatching without food, unlike most other shrimp species.
Now that the kreisel has had time to "cycle", and the fact that I am doing daily 50 percent water changes with filtered NSW as well as putting a 1/2 inch layer of established sand into the kreisels pump compartment, any water quality issues should be a thing of the past.
I'm expecting the next batch of larvae sometime around the 21st and will be sweating it hard untill I get them past day two. I've crossed every T and dotted every I that I can imagine, so from here on.....should be interesting... I hope!...lol

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Okay, time for round 3. The female, if holding to her schedule, should be spawning on the 21st, give or take. This time, I am going to put her directly into the kreisel (tomorrow night) and let her stay there untill she spawns. The adult's tank is aerated by an air stone and wonder now if the air stone is beating the larvae while waiting for me to notice the hatch. Just trying to ensure the larvae have the least amount of reasons to give up the ghost on me this time. I need to get a few more mated pairs as well, This waiting for weeks between hatches is like having to wait for christmas thirty times a year...lol

Chuck

[Jen]

Chuck, you are doing a great job. I now have pistol shrimp with eggs and plan to follow your lead. I seem to wait weeks between clownfish eggs, so I know what you mean there. I just purchased an adult mated pair of gold stripe maroons. I will now have two pairs laying and hope to successfully raise a batch of clownfish.
I do not know what the restrictions are on sending rotifer cultures to other countries, but I can check. I have a healthy culture and could send you some if you think you might want to try them. I feed them roti feast from reed mariculture. It is a great first food and they are easy to keep going. You do not even need light. Just some cheap plastic containers and an air pump.

Jen

[BrianPlankis]

I just purchased an adult mated pair of gold stripe maroons. I will now have two pairs laying and hope to successfully raise a batch of clownfish.

Jen

Jen,

I would keep an eye on the gold stripe maroons. I purchased a mated pair some time back and the first couple of weeks were fine, but then they beat the TAR out of my false perculas until I had to remove the gold stripes. I believe my tank at the time was a 75 (this was when I was in Chicago), so maybe yours tank is large enough for two mated pairs.

Now back to your regular scheduled programming.....

[charlesr1958]

Thanks Jen, that would be awesome, I had hoped the copepods in the kreisel would create enough of their own larvae to feed the clownfish fry, after losing the last fry, which made it to day five and then died, I checked a petri dish full of the water today and could not find a single copepod larvae, when two days before, there were a good many of them. Not loaded, but had hoped it was going to be enough to keep a few (five) fry alive. After all that, I decided to not even try to raise the next batch of fry as it would be a waste of effort.
It would be nice to get such a clownfish breeding program going as well, because I see a GREAT many clownfish being pulled off of the reefs, I can not stress enough the amounts I am talking about. It freaks me out. I haven't seen a wild percula in over a year now. The few clowns I do see, are single oscellaris, no mates, no young. Two years ago, every anemone had a family, now its a rare event to find an anemone hosting a clownfish. Its a bummer, but anyways, if I could provide the exporter here with clownfish, as I plan to do with harlequins, might I can convince him to stop collecting or at least cut back a lot. The rotifers might be a good first food for the harlequins as well. I know how much shipping by UPS or FedEx costs and can never relay my true appreciation when someone such as yourself offers to do such a thing. I sent Eric some paddleweed and ouch!..lol But without peaple like Eric, Andy and Dave, I would be very far behind in doing what I can do now. A Thank you never expresses the true heart felt warmth.

Charles Raabe
Door # 4 German Village
Gun-Ob Carajay
Lapu Lapu City Philippines 6015

in case its needed, phone : 63-32-341-4820

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Okay, batch number 3 made its debut this morning (6/22), and this time, I have a great many harlequin larvae as for the first time, instead of collecting the larvae from the parent's tank, with its larvae killing air stone, I put the female into the kreisel a few days ago which is a MUCH easier way to do things. Being that harlequin have no interest in eating their young as other species do, I did not have to create any type of pen for her.
I just removed the female and put her back in with the male, and no problems as I had worried if the time apart would cause a mated pair a problem with being reintroduced. They never missed a beat and you would have never known they were ever apart. Although the male did do a little happy dance of a sort, but after 30 seconds, they both got back down to business of eating.
With so many larvae, I put about 30 of them into the copepod compartment that has an airline (no air stone) with a slow bubble rate.
I also had a massive sexy shrimp spawn on the 20th, most of which are still in the parents tank as well, but did put 15 into the kreisel and 15 in with the pods also. Surprisingly, this is their third full day now, which the previous batches had always been lost on day two. Am sure it is because the sexy shrimps tank is now really "mature", in that it has tons of algae and is most likely full of little "critters" for them to eat.
Anyways, I was supposed to be in the ocean today collecting more copepods, but as my luck runs, a huge storm is parked on top of us and I have the dang flu !!!! I would go anyways, but I could not hide having the flu from my wife last night and she has me banned from the water today. I suppose laying under a quilt shivering from a fever was a big clue....lol, Am sure I will make a miraculous recovery today and can get in the water tomorrow. Am feeling better already...lol

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Ya all are probably getting tired of my updates as I seem to be spinning my wheels lately. BUT.. this time, I have high hopes as I have done everything humanely possible to get it right.

A few changes or things done differently than the last two batches.

- The female was put into the kreisel to spawn this time. I feel this has a great advantage since there are no acclimation or shock issues for the larvae, and I did not have to do a thing about collecting them out of the adult's tank.

- I reduced the number of larvae from 500 down to about 50 in the kreisel, this is to avoid over crowding issues. Broke my heart though to put that many larvae out and took a great amount of will power to do so.

- The kreisel is fully cycled, has a shallow sandbed in the pump section for biofiltration. Each day, partial water changes are done using NSW.

- I put a 24 inch bulb over the entire breeding tank which made a great difference in how the larvae and pods react. They are no longer drawn to any one spot and now allow the kreisel's flow to carry them along as it was meant to.

- Since the larvae hatched out yesterday morning (22nd), I just got back from catching thousands upon thousands of copepods and each larvae now has at least 500 pods each to eat. The pod compartment also got an equal share of pods which also has a few harlequin and the sexy shrimp larvae in there as well. By the way, the sexy shrimp are on day 4 now!!! A new record for me...lol

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/breedertank.jpg

As you can see in the below photo, the shrimp larave will not want for food. I did note though how the larvae seem to hover below the mass of pods, allow themselves to drift up into the mass, grab a pod, and sink back downwards while I assume they eat the pod.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/temp26.jpg

If I don't get at least a few larvae to settle out this time, I will be at a total loss as to what to do next, other than just keeping at it. Hopefully in a week or two, I can post some larvae development photos.... I hope....lol

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

Ya all are probably getting tired of my updates as I seem to be spinning my wheels lately. BUT.. this time, I have high hopes as I have done everything humanely possible to get it right.


Absolutely not! In fact quite the opposite, I think it is great you are sharing all this information, the more details the better. If someone in the future wants to attempt to raise these shrimp then they'll learn a lot from the detail in this thread.



If I don't get at least a few larvae to settle out this time, I will be at a total loss as to what to do next, other than just keeping at it. Hopefully in a week or two, I can post some larvae development photos.... I hope....lol

Chuck

Even if you don't get some to settle out don't beat yourself up about it. Very few people have tried these shrimp and you are cutting your teeth on them, a difficult proposition. Just keep at it and as long as you learn a single thing each time then you'll get closer to success. Patience, my young skywalker :D

Brian

[charlesr1958]

Thanks Brian. Today was a milestone, maybe not for the larvae, but more for me as the last two batches would get to 48 hours and drop dead on me, Here it is 6am and I am up like a kid on christmas morning rushing downstairs to check if santa had arrived...lol, and... day 3 and ALL the larvae are doing great, even the ones that I put into the pod tank, which were not meant to do well. I just couldn't bring myself to flush em all and had to put them somewhere...lol

Edited to add : Hey, I got to thinking about something else and meant to bring it up. I have April's book "how to raise and train your peppermint shrimp", and in it, she states that getting a ten percent survival rate is a good thing and considers losing 90 plus percent of the larvae to be normal. I also noted that she raises the larvae on nothing but enriched BBS. Having read what you posted about survival rates when using bbs brought that all to mind and I now wonder if that is the reason April could only get a ten percent success rate? Is it just coincedental that the study showed upwards of 96 percent larvae losses when fed enriched bbs and April getting pretty much the same rates as well? hmmmm.....

Chuck

[BrianPlankis]

Having read what you posted about survival rates when using bbs brought that all to mind and I now wonder if that is the reason April could only get a ten percent success rate? Is it just coincedental that the study showed upwards of 96 percent larvae losses when fed enriched bbs and April getting pretty much the same rates as well? hmmmm.....

Chuck

Glad to hear they are doing well past 48 hours! If it really is true that enriched bbs is a terrible first food, then you really have to give kuddos to the people able to raise all these different shrimp and fish on bbs.

Now if copepods are really as good a food as the new research suggests, it should be significantly easier to raise a lot of different species previously thought impossible. Only time will tell how good copepods will be as a food source.

I envy your ability to go down to the ocean and get some pods. But I guess the ocean is only 1.5 hours away for me? Of course my area is full of temperate plankton, not the reef plankton you have.

Brian

["Umm, fish?"]

Ah, you think you're jealous, Brian? I go outside and wave a plankton net and hope they blow here from the Pacific. We get some pretty good winds, but not that good....

Chuck, man, push through the learning curve. We're rooting for you!

[charlesr1958]

Thanks! Could have sworn I saw the larvae molting a few hours ago as well, might be my imagination or wishfull thinking, but they appear quite a bit larger than when first hatched.
It is great to be able to collect my own pods, but there have been many a times when I wish I could just buy them, had I not been able to find any yesterday, all I could have done was sit here and watch them starve to death.
If this batch does settle out and I can get a few to young adulthood, I can then complete the care/breeding page I've been working on as well as having the unique pleasure of giving them to the exporter here knowing that many will not be collected from the wild. That is going to be cool.

Chuck

[Jen]

I would keep an eye on the gold stripe maroons. I purchased a mated pair some time back and the first couple of weeks were fine, but then they beat the TAR out of my false perculas until I had to remove the gold stripes. I believe my tank at the time was a 75 (this was when I was in Chicago), so maybe yours tank is large enough for two mated pairs.



Sorry, I was not clear Brian, they are in a seperate tank all their own. I would not try to put them with my percs.

Chuck, as busy as I am, I always look for new posts from you so I can see how things are going with you. Before I send rotifers, I am checking on export and import requirements to make sure that I am not violating any laws. I will also post my setup for keeping these guys alive. You will need a source of green water or nannocloropsis to feed them. Other than that and an air source, there is no secret.

I have harlequin and sexy shrimp and have not even tried to raise young. But on another note, as I write this, I am collecting larvae percs that are hatching out tonight.

Jen

[charlesr1958]

I have harlequin and sexy shrimp and have not even tried to raise young. But on another note, as I write this, I am collecting larvae percs that are hatching out tonight.

Jen

Hi Jen,

Congrats on the perc larvae, am sure you will do good with them as you seem set for such an adventure. The sexy shrimp larvae would do well on rotifers as well. Thanks to Andy, I have cultured phytoplankton all set up, which I have been using to enrich (and keep alive) the copepods I feed to the harlequin larvae. Plans are already made to have a few more small tanks built so that I can accomodate fish fry as well as having extra grow out room for the shrimp when (and if) they settle out. Just being optimistic....lol

Good luck with the fish fry and do keep things updated so we can follow along as well. Thanks!

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Hey Chuck! I just realized that I never sent you the link to me asking questions about your sexy shrimp larvae over at MOFIB. Here's the thread: http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=5334#5334

[charlesr1958]

Thanks Andy!
Am a bit depressed this morning, I am down to only five harlequin larvae left alive, and am of course sitting here pulling my hair out trying to imagine what could be going wrong. The only possible I can think of, is maybe they do need a smaller first food.
Next month, I am going to set up a ten gallon tank, let it age and keep a good number of pods in it for awhile and try that out as well. I'm sitting here just dumbfounded at the losses now. BUT.... gotta keep plugging away...lol

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

They shouldn't really need smaller. Shrimp are able to hang onto food and bite chunks out, unlike fish larvae. Contaminant in the water?

[charlesr1958]

That was one of my first concerns and have taken great pains to ensure no such thing could happen. On the rare occassion that I do have to put my hand in there, I surgicaly scrub down to get all the oils off my hands and only use NSW for the small water change each day. I'm going with the ten gallon tank idea and let it turn into a plankton soup. Since I can not keep all of the five hundred larvae the female spits out every two weeks, I figure the ten gallon would give me a place to put the "extras" out of the kreisel as well as giving me another method / chance for success.
I pulled one of the larvae today and quickly snapped off some photos, from what I could see, it is gut loaded with phyto, which I assume is from it eating the pods. I am positive the pods are enough, was just grabbing at straws earlier. I'm going to get this sooner or later...lol, probably much, much later...lol

Day Five:
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/harlequinlarvae5.2.jpg

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

End of day five and all the larvae are gone! But...having found a japanese webpage and translating some of it, it appears that he also had / has problems with the larvae sinking and then dieing off. He eventualy got past it, but still experienced great losses and never did figure out why the larvae weaken and drop out of the water flow to collect on the bottom and die. I did notice how his success seemed to go hand in hand with the age of his kreisel, meaning that biofiltration is a big help, but not a total cure for having so many losses. I have no idea as to why the larvae would weaken over their first few days, something lacking in the water? or too much of something in the water? This is going to drive me nuts...lol

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Oh, right. Water quality. How many copepods did you drop in there all of a sudden? All of them making ammonia and respirating (thus dropping pH).

[charlesr1958]

well, a few thousand?...lol, and is probably as you noted, the problem. Never thought of that and should have been obvious. Okay, next round, no pods untill they hatch out, and then add only enough pods to get them feeding and try and keep the pod concentration at a "just enough" level. Something that is going to take getting a feel for I guess.
Thanks Andy, that alone is probably a huge factor in the losses.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Or else start filling it with copepods now and let the biofilter get established. I might head that way and try to get them all reproducing in the tank. But then aren't I just the daredevil? :rolleyes:

[charlesr1958]

Its been water quality giving me the trouble all of this time. It should have been so obvious to me. Next round, Am going to keep the larvae down to about 25 since the kreisel is pretty small, and then dose in copepods to where there is just enough of them that the larvae have a fair chance of grabbing one. That and keep up with constant water changes as well as hoping the biofilter is better established by then. But.. I have a feeling I am going to end up having to make a much larger kreisel. Might be time to fall back and regroup. There is no reason, other than water quality as for why the larvae weaken and drop dead on me. Time to start designing a new, larger system, as I really do hate the idea of having hundreds of larvae and then basicaly killing most of them because the kreisel is too small.
I wonder now if water quality is what gave Jen a hard time with the clownfish larvae? All those rotifers must contribute their own wastes as well.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Well, I like the idea of a larger kreisel, but I always think bigger is better. :rolleyes: But, a place to start might be to just connect it to a larger sump. All the benefits of more stable water quality with all the added benefits of keeping the prey density high. Plus, you could get a sandbed in a larger sump that might give you some real possibilities, water-quality wise.

[charlesr1958]

Okay, now that I ran out and bought a new hard drive, I can get back online and into things again...lol, by the way, when you are cleaning your computer of dust, its a good idea to not touch anything inside while it is still connected to a power supply, besides a taking a good zap myself, the hard drive was a total loss. Theres goes my fifty bucks I had saved up....lol

Anyways... I forgot I had a cannister filter that has not been in use for a year and just installed that onto the pump section of the kreisel, then I can load it up with carbon and hope that does the trick. I would love to rig up a large sump to the entire thing, but am out of room as to where I could put such a thing. With the high flow going on in that section now, am also going to drop some live rock in there also. Hopefully by the 7th (due date again), all will be much better, if not, then I may just tie the whole thing right into my 100 gallons of reef system and call it done.

Chuck

[reeformadness]

I hate to see you give up on that wonderful kreisel you made...Have you thought about plumbing it to a very large sump to deal with water quality issues?

[reeformadness]

Sorry about the question that was already asked...I guess I ought to read all new threads before I reply.

[charlesr1958]

Actualy, I did give up on the kreisel I made, but only because I had another built !...lol, I'll have to post a photo of it later, am just getting myself back online after a week long phone service outage.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Okay, took having to add a temp background to get the photo, but this is the completed kreisel. Am waiting on the weather to allow me to go get enough ocean water to fill it and start its cycle process. Which means the next few hatches of larvae are going to be a loss as I am not going to attempt to raise any untill I feel the new tank system is mature enough to handle the water quality. Hopefully with having a cannister filter loaded with a good grade of carbon and having doubled the water volume along with a MUCH larger filter section, I will have better success now. I do plan to keep the filter area barren of rock or sand and instead will get some of those ceramic cubes to act as surface area for the biofilm. I will also most likely add a strong light over the filter area to promote algae growth on the glass which in turn can become a copepod (glass crawling species) production area as well.

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/breedertank.jpg

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Nice tank! I think sand'll give you more surface area for bacteria than the ceramic thingys, though. Are your broodstock going into the large area on the left? Umm, I had more questions, but I lost them. Sorry.

[charlesr1958]

Hey Andy,

I thought about the sand, but noticed when I did that with the last setup, I ended up with daily "grit" laying on the bottom of the kreisel section making a mess. I noticed if there is ANY thing that the larvae can latch onto, they will, which is why I want to keep it as debris free as possible, that and its a pain to siphon the bottom of the kreisel a few times a day...lol

The brood stock are still in their old setup, and have the old kreisel section set up now as a raising / rearing tank in the hopes that one day I can take some settled larvae out and grow them up to adults. In that old set up, I still have the far right compartment empty and plan to use that for either another pair of harlequins or a pair of another shrimp species.

Its going to kill me to have to wait now for the new setup to cycle, but have learned the patience thingy once again with the last attempts. Am determined this is going to do the trick and nail this species once and for all.

Chuck

["Umm, fish?"]

Well, since you have a very good reason, I guess I'll let you slide.... :)

Cool! Good luck!

[charlesr1958]

Am going to call this one the "do over!"...lol

Managed to make a mad dash to the ocean today during high tide and grabbed up some water and sand. The new and larger Kreisel is now running and I also had a larger brood stock compartmented system built as well. Two nice sized compartments for two mated pairs, with the third and last compartment being twice the size of the others for future use as a grow out tank. Each compartment got a two inch live sand bed with a few small rocks, the rocks being ensured to be critter free as I don't need any evil hitch hikers doing me in.
Last night, there was another hatch out, but can do nothing for them now. Might have to let the next few hatches go as I wait for the kreisel to mature. I really have my hopes up now that I think I have all the bases covered. Some time next week I will be adding a light over the filtration compartment of the kriesel and put some macro algae minus any rock or sand to help out with nutrient control. I figure with that, and a large carbon loaded cannister filter, the odds should be more in my favor now. Probably won't hear from me on this subject for at least a month or two. Am really excited about this go round but have to keep my patience and get this done.

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

Although it appears that the new kreisel tank is cycled, I am going to give it at least two to four more weeks of running as is, just to be sure. The sides of the tank are getting a brown algae growth which is a good sign, but am very leary of rushing things. Holler back at ya in a few more weeks!...lol

Chuck