Pro Mexican Turbo Opinion

[jnarowe]

So I got a little smacked on RC about Mexican Turbos:

GreshamH's Opinion (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10173496#post10173496)

Might be interesting to get more info. from him as his stated occupation is "marine farmer".

[greenbean36191]

Given that he imports and sells the snails and his past denial of some pretty clear cut issues in the hobby I would take his stance with a huge grain of salt.

High seasonal temperatures don't make an environment tropical. The temperature regime even in the central part of the Sea of Cortez is about the same as in the northern Gulf of Mexico, with an average temperature the same as the coast of Alabama. I don't think anyone would argue that Alabama is tropical. You're talking an average about 10 degrees colder than an average coral reef and that only gets cooler as you go north. By almost any measure, it's a temperate environment. There are some truly tropical animals there, but most are just animals that can stand a wide range of temperatures throughout the year.

Regardless of what he thinks the cause of their high mortality is I don't see any reason to encourage their use in the hobby when there are plenty of other snails that do much better.

[jnarowe]

I hear ya but I find it counter-productive to argue about it on RC. I did point him here and I assume you saw my posts...I tried to be pleasant about it! :)

[BrianPlankis]

Regardless of what he thinks the cause of their high mortality is I don't see any reason to encourage their use in the hobby when there are plenty of other snails that do much better.

I agree with this, regardless of the temperature of where the snails come from, their source of mortality or how long his have survived, there is a more basic issue here.

The world's oceans, not just coral reefs, are rapidly declining from a variety of unsustainable practices by humanity. The predictions, based on pretty good science mind you, are beginning to get very dire (See Dr Shimek's AHABS article 9) and as the oceans further degrade tighter restrictions will be placed on wild collection.

The saltwater aquarium hobby is currently geared towards unsustainable practices, as are most things in today's culture. Now some of this is changing and that is good news, but there continue to be many unsustainable practices. The use of temperate and cold water animals is one of them and, except for supply, there is no reason to continue this practice.

Why continue to use animals that must be constantly replenished, rarely if ever reproduce in captivity, and are either known to be over harvested or no data exists on if they are over harvested?

My first three years in the hobby I purchased Astraea and "Mexican" turbos just like everyone else. I don't know exactly how many I purchased, but it was certainly over 100.

My last two years in the hobby my tank has been exclusively Trochus stellatus, the DIBS Turbo, Cerith #1 and #3 and the Columbellid sp. (a few other minor snails, all breeders as well). I'll need to check my records, but my 90 gallons of water has generated over 900 snails for export to other tanks in less than 2 year's time.

Hum.... -100 in 3 years or +900 in two years? Which practice is more sustainable?

I might also add except for nuisance bubble algae and a little bryopsis I don't have a speck of algae in the tank. Snails certainly aren't the sexiest invertebrates, but it is a great example of a hobbyist looking at their own individual practices, identifying practices that are unsustainable and finding a way to turn a negative into a positive. The more hobbyists that do this the better!

I hear ya but I find it counter-productive to argue about it on RC. I did point him here and I assume you saw my posts...I tried to be pleasant about it! :)

I think it is important to discuss things on other boards to educate new hobbyists, but arguments should be avoided if possible. If someone wants to continue to discuss, invite them here and we can try to have a managed discussion. The last thing Project DIBS members need to do is go around on other boards and get involved in arguments, there is nothing good that can come out of it.

We certainly can't expect everyone to agree with our sustainable approach to invertebrates and going against established practice certainly must be done carefully. I think you handled it well Jonathan and it is best left alone.

Brian

[GreshamH]

Given that he imports and sells the snails and his past denial of some pretty clear cut issues in the hobby I would take his stance with a huge grain of salt.

WOW, what a warm welcome :( Makes RC seem pleasent :lol:

Just what are my past denials of some pretty clear cut issues in this hobby? Please tell as I have no idea what your talking about :) I'm all for sustainable collections where possiable, and I'm a huge fan of aquaculture and mariculture. Heck, 80% of our products go to aquaculture and mariculture operations.

For the record I have not imported, nor sold, any animals other then copepods and rotifers for several years now.

[GreshamH]

So I got a little smacked on RC about Mexican Turbos:

GreshamH's Opinion (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10173496#post10173496)

Might be interesting to get more info. from him as his stated occupation is "marine farmer".

You just need to ask, I'm not shy :)

I work for Reed Mariculture. Of the many things I do, I grow/farm several different marine items of which some are sold. Others are just projects that may or may not go anywhere. I've been working with several different copepods recently and I'm half way thru completion of a anemone farming system.

Gresham H

[graveyardworm]

You just need to ask, I'm not shy :)

I work for Reed Mariculture. Of the many things I do, I grow/farm several different marine items of which some are sold. Others are just projects that may or may not go anywhere. I've been working with several different copepods recently and I'm half way thru completion of a anemone farming system.

Gresham H

I'm a little excited to hear of the anemone farming system. Is this something you would be willing to share with us here?

[jnarowe]

hhmmmm....anemone farming? That sounds a lot like snail farming! :lol: My anemones "farm" themselves. :) I would add to Brian's numbers the fact that my system has produced well over 10,000 snails in less than 12 months.

I am having a new baseball cap made that says, "Got Snails?"

Glad you came for a visit Gresham, and I hope you can further explain your view on Mexican turbos.

[GreshamH]

Once I get the system in place I'll do a build thread here and describe in in utter detail :) I'd like to get is built and take pictures of the final project since it's fairly close to happenning. Nothing super fancy but it'll do :)

10K snails? which ones are you breeding?

jnarowe wrote in another thread....
*GreshamH:* Well, I don't buy into the cause of Mexican Turbo deaths as being the way they were handled. Sure animals are mis-handled in the course of bringing them to market, but mine were alive for 14+ months before they started to perish, and it was only after the tank reached 82F on consecutive days that they did so. I don't think that has anything to do with the way they were shipped or harvested.

I have no idea what their natural lifespan is in the wild, but I felt pretty good that mine were alive for so long, and believed that was because I allowed my tank to drop to 76F every night. Whatever the case may be, there's ample evidence that they are not good candidates for captive reefs even if just for simple reasons such as how much waste they produce, or their ability to knock over corals. Mine got to be the size of golf balls, but in their haste to perish, I have been slapped with a nutirent issue that is affecting my water quality and I believe the catalyst for my montipora STN events.

I had 50 of them in my system and have been pulling them out at 1 - 2 per day for the past two weeks.
82 in the ocean and 82 in our tank can be quite different in terms of ammonia/DO/etc level, but I'm actual not posting a rebuttle :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm not debating, nor did I, if they're totally reef safe in terms of knocking corals down and pooing like saint bernards... There's no debate there. Nor is there any debate that many die, er, most. Can you tell I'm waffling on my stance :) Honestly the amount of turbos we processed was very minimal. The main bulk come from the upper Sea of Cortez where the permit issued crossed the MO lines into bulk food fisheries. Instead of being an itimized permit like the other 2 permits in Baja, they got "kilos" of animals listed and by-catch permits.

I'd love for nothing more then to teach the village in baja how to breed and farm their own various snails/inverts,etc and remove their pressure from the eco-system :) I have a few items they can farm now but it would be great to add more. The village above them does scallops and several macro algaes. Any one of those could displace the turbo need.

After talking with my old boss and seeing when we last imported the turbos I found I was off by 2 years on how old it (turbo) is. It's ~6 years old. I haven't added any since then. I cleaned the tank tonight and counted his tank mates. I found an abalone, one trochus, a bali turbo (black shell) and a Honduras turbo in a 30g. In the connected prop tank I have another abalone, a couple trochus and a hitchhiker trio of astreas that came along with a coral. My tanks run cool, 74 most of the year. Summer they may hit 80 a few times, but 78 is max during lights on. It gets cool here at night so it almost always drops down to 74 - 75.

[jnarowe]

I primarily have columbellids and DIBS Turbo sp. but I also have ceriths, nerites, stomatella, and some kind of limpet that all seem to breed, but in much lower numbers.

So clearly based on your temps., your tank is much closer to the Mexican Turbo's natural environement. That would explain why they are living so much longer in your system correct? And why they lasted for so long in mine. The water temp. is cooler than the average captive reef.

[GreshamH]

I atribute a lot of my success with many animals to my temp. I've been able to keep many Tongan and Fijian acros that tend to brown out on others. Problem is I feed fairly heavily so I can't quite give the temp a green light as the only reason :)

FWIW I'm referring to T. fluctuosa (sp?) with the brown patterned shell. We never collected, not sold, Margarites pupillus.