Raceway Ranting

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Gary when you say raceway are you talking about left and right water channels or something simular? ... Nope ... hehe ... :elephant: ...


http://anemonelab.com/route66marine/r66m-01-racewaySingle.jpg


This is what I meant when I spoke of a "raceway". This is molded fiberglass, with outer perimeter dimensions of 16' X 4' X 30" (~1196 US Gallons). When I figure in the overflow space loss, the volume lost by the sloping sides, and calculate for operating depth I get a net "working" water volume of ~ 1000 US Gallons. There are currently three of these raceways in operation. When sumps and satilite tanks are factored in, the net gallon sizes range from 1165 to 1380 US gallons.


:thumbsup:

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Here are some other views ...


http://anemonelab.com/route66marine/r66m-01-ground.jpg

http://anemonelab.com/route66marine/r66m-01-middle.jpg

http://anemonelab.com/route66marine/r66m-01-upper.jpg



:thumbsup:

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


... I read about something where some faculties would use coral's as a type of nutrient export?I've never come across any literature about configurations that utilize corals as a means of nutrient export. There are a few references citing corals as a component of a filtration strategy, but never as the primary export mechanism. Similarly, many folks have experimented with Tridacna clams as a fitration strategy component. Also, some folks have fooled arond with sponges and other azooxanthellate organisms in so-called "cryptic" filtration configurations (most notably Steve Tyree).

My personal interest (... and perhaps more importantly, my employer's interest ...) is in the manipulation of C:N:P ratios in the water column (so-called "carbon dosing" strategies) as a means to maximize microbial nutrient export, and also as a secondary means of manipulating zooxanthellae density in order to maintain, and recover, the optimal pigmentation in newly imported coral specimens.


HTH
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

Gary, what an interesting discussion and i really would like to learn more if possible.

When you say fooled by "cryptic" filtration configurations, can you give more infos here?

Also when you say "carbon dosing" what exactly you dose into your system? can you elaborate it more?

[PHYTO4LIFE]

Greetings All !


I've never come across any literature about configurations that utilize corals as a means of nutrient export. There are a few references citing corals as a component of a filtration strategy, but never as the primary export mechanism. Similarly, many folks have experimented with Tridacna clams as a fitration strategy component. Also, some folks have fooled arond with sponges and other azooxanthellate organisms in so-called "cryptic" filtration configurations (most notably Steve Tyree).

My personal interest (... and perhaps more importantly, my employer's interest ...) is in the manipulation of C:N:P ratios in the water column (so-called "carbon dosing" strategies) as a means to maximize microbial nutrient export, and also as a secondary means of manipulating zooxanthellae density in order to maintain, and recover, the optimal pigmentation in newly imported coral specimens.


HTH
:thumbsup:

Sounds interesting what you say and I am a believer but for me personaly imo I never had a large scale operation etc and was wondering on your perception on soft coral or coral in general if you might believe that like zooplankton that corals consume more then they export?

beautiful systems

Can you give me a bit of info on your lighting please?

Good job I would love to work there

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


...When you say fooled by "cryptic" filtration configurations, can you give more infos here? ... Sure ... two of the parameters that define "zones" within reef ecosystems are light and flow. Areas (as large as the interiors of caves & crevices, and the undersides of reef overhangs, and as small as narrow cracks & the undersides of foliaceous ... flattened, projecting like tiles, thin layers or strata ... corals) with weak/low light levels and low flow rates have been termed cryptic. Sponges, azooxanthellate coral relatives & allies, filter-feeders of many types, low light algae, marine worms, and the full range of non-photosynthetic microfauna readily inhabit and compete within such zones ... and they all consume nutrients. Given a large enough biomass of these types of organisms, significant nutrient uptake can be demonstrated. Not surprisingly, marine aquarists have tried to exploit this niche dynamic.

Bob Fenner gives a brief (... very brief ...) description, in terms of filtration, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/tyreecmatv1.htm

Steve Tyree is probably the most well known proponent of cryptic filtration configurations. The basic overview ... very basic ... of his concepts is presented in his website, but beware of the heavy commercialization. His website uses the extraordinarily annoying 'frames' sytle ... impossible to conveniently link. Follow this sequence to sidestep most of the Tyree propaganda machine:

Start here:
http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm

Click the 'http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm' orange lettered link that appears near the top of the "page" to get to the expanded navigation menu.



... Also when you say "carbon dosing" what exactly you dose into your system? can you elaborate it more?We are currently dosing a combination of proprietary products manufactured by Korallen Zucht, Elos, and Brightwell Aquatics. We are also running a "zeoreactor" with Korallen Zucht's zeolithic media in 2 of the 3 raceway systems. Our dosing strategy (combinations & amounts), and media exchange pattern is significantly "outside the box" in comparison to manufacturer recommendations. We also apply UV sterilization and ozonation, both of which are in contradiction to manufacturer recommendations.



HTH
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

Thanks Gary, i'm partly agree that sponge does not have the ability to replace skimmer. However, i do believe that sponge would be able to remove dissolved organic material from corals and algae. here is an interesting article that i found:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090113100111.htm



We are currently dosing a combination of proprietary products manufactured by Korallen Zucht, Elos, and Brightwell Aquatics. We are also running a "zeoreactor" with Korallen Zucht's zeolithic media in 2 of the 3 raceway systems. Our dosing strategy (combinations & amounts), and media exchange pattern is significantly "outside the box" in comparison to manufacturer recommendations. We also apply UV sterilization and ozonation, both of which are in contradiction to manufacturer recommendations.

Thanks and how you find the product? i was wondering before how could you use carbon dosing method and control the good and bad bacteria. but I think you just answered my question. :D

btw, would you mind to talk a bit more for how to maintain these large system and how to calculate the consumption...etc like you mentioned before?

Cheers,
A

[PHYTO4LIFE]

This was a great link http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm

["Umm, fish?"]

Very nice. My LFS uses similar (though shallower I think) vessels as frag tanks with surges at one end and overflows on the other to provide much of the water flow.

I've never come across any literature about configurations that utilize corals as a means of nutrient export.

I believe Calfo talks about them in his coral prop book. From what I recall, he advocated dividing shallow containers into a maze of narrow channels. Water input at one side and nowhere for the water to go except through all the narrow channels to an overflow at the other end of the maze. It was never clear to me whether this was an idea he had as he was writing the book or whether he had actually tested the idea. He'd suggested something like xenia or aiptasia (with UV oversterilization of the output water if aiptasia, I'd assume). I'd be worried about using soft corals because of their defensive chemicals, myself. Plus, removing small particles of food from the water is not an issue that I worry about. I'm all about trying to get _more_ small particles of food into the water, personally.

[PHYTO4LIFE]

Page 38 nutrient scrubbing race way I was thinking of incorporating that style design but a little different with a 40G shallow raceway approx 10X flow 216" of track/water channel I heard Dick Perrin from Tropicorium uses something similar but I will use blue t5's ,sponges,dsb,maybe some rock rubble 60-80 high end soft coral/kenya trees on plugs the reason is that I can fully load phyto dosage using a doser/drip while at the same time using coral's as a means of clearing the phyto up while harvesting the softies keeping a crystal clear tank hoping/just a theory anyways

["Umm, fish?"]

Corals don't eat phyto, but the sponges would love it. It might be good for growing out small clams, too.

[amashun]

but clams also don't take phyto too....

["Umm, fish?"]

Really? I've always read that phyto was what they were filtering.

[amashun]

I think they do filter some but not to extend that to target feeding:
http://www.reefaquariumforum.com/tridacnid-clam-feeding-and-the-truth-t3482.html

btw, i've successfully raise 2 baby clams without any feeding at all. 2 are different species and they were 15mm when i got them. If you are interested, i can pm you the link :)

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Apologies for not replying earlier, everyone ... :wallbash:


great raceway's were did you get them from? ... There's a company in the Bay Area that builds them for us. PM me if you'd like their contact info.



... What is your lighting and flow rate on them raceway's? ... The lighting is a combination of 400W MH and 48" 8 X 54W T5 fixtures. The pumps are 1/2 HP with the newer energy efficient Baldor motors. They're rated for ~11,000 GPH, but I'm guessing we lose about 10% through friction & back pressure, so we're probably getting something around 10,000 GPH. The first two raceways' returns have one side shooting across the surface, while the other side shoots downward ... what we get from that is a "rolling gyre" that keeps light particulates suspended, and localization of heavier particulates for easy siphoning/removal. The third raceway uses this configuration, plus we added an additional 1/3 HP closed loop that shoots straight across the bottom.


:thumbsup:

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


... would you mind to talk a bit more for how to maintain these large system and how to calculate the consumption...etc like you mentioned before? The general maintenance & operational task set looks like this ...

Daily Tasks
Water testing (sometimes multiple times throughout the day);
Sodium bicarbonate supplementation;
Calcium carbonate supplementation;
Various proprietary "potions" supplementation;
Protein skimmer collection cup cleaning;
Salinity adjustment (either RODI or NSW, or both);
Algae scrubbing;
System hardware operation & safety inspection;

Periodic Tasks
Magnesium sulfate & magnesium chloride supplementation;
Live rock surface agitation ("powerhead blasting");
200 micron filter sock changeout;
Hardware cleaning & parts replacement;


Both my boss and I are very "hands on" reef geek addict types ... we essentially operate these "working" systems as though they are just very large personal display systems. Not surprisingly, such a strategy is massively labor intensive, especially since each is its own individual system ... most wholesalers run a single, massive system but we wanted to be able to tweak each one in order to provide parameters that are closer to the source parameters for what we're importing at any given time.


Consumption calculation is merely a matter of tracking chemical parameter shifts multiple times a day across extended timeframes. Happily, the first system crossed the one-year threshold and has finally achieved the kind of stability that allows us to invest less time. But generally speaking ... within the given season we're trying to mimic ... I track the daily shift in mineral depletion, calculate the general ppm consumption rate, and supplement accordingly, with an eye towards both maintaining baseline levels, while slowly nudging the chemistry towards the target levels I'm trying to achieve.

Sorry I don't have a formula, or anything more precise than that ... :smashcomp: :o

It's also a matter of personal degeneration ... I'm being drawn into the 'dark side' of "observation-based" reefkeeping, and the worst part is that I'm liking it. My boss is one of those experience-based alchemist reefers ... he couldn't tell you why things do what they do in the systems even if his childrens' lives depended on it. But he has the magical 'blue thumb' touch. Our command-control discussions take about 3 times longer than they should because I have to translate the reef alchemy-voodoo cyber-talk that he uses into the empirical, research-based terminology that I'm grounded in ...

... my reefkeeping life has become very strange this past year ... :wallbash: :frogjump: :D


HTH
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

Gary, thanks for the run down, much appreciated.

It is really interesting to see everyone do differently (well, to me anyway).

I can imagine that you do your daily dosing when using Zeo. but you also have an ASF? Now this is something i really want to hear more. what's the + and - if you don't mind to share that again please?

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Gary, thanks for the run down, much appreciated.
It is really interesting to see everyone do differently (well, to me anyway). ...
You're quite welcome. I also share a fascination with how others practice their artistry ... :elephant:



... I can imagine that you do your daily dosing when using Zeo. but you also have an ASF? Now this is something i really want to hear more. what's the + and - if you don't mind to share that again please?As a former moderator of ZEOville's Coral Science & Resrearch Application forum (... now an archive ...), it's always seemed a little strange to me that I'm not the one who does the ZEO dosing in our systems. I'd be a little miffed at this, were it not for the fact that the discussions about why my boss doses differently than I would have turned out to be quite illuminating.

I'm usually pretty good with acronyms, but my brain is jamming on "ASF" ... sorry ... :confused: :wallbash: :lol:



:thumbsup:

[amashun]

Algae Scrubber Filter?

[PHYTO4LIFE]

Algae Scrubber Filter?

I've called it ATS algae turf scrubber but there are a number of other names/short forms

[amashun]

you are right Clint. i'm just getting too old and forget about the name. thanks for the correction :)

[PHYTO4LIFE]

I was thinking of setting up something like a 20G low blue light with sponges etc to my 120G system I think now after reading more about sponges and using sponges safely for years along with phyto culture experience I think I will give it a try

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


that's some serious equipment ... Thanks, but from an industry perspective it's just average grade stuff. The LFS that I used to work at had systems that were designed and installed by RK2 Systems back in the mid-1990s ... much more intricate with multiple 1 HP pumps (separate fish only and reef systems with a total of 96 individual tanks). On a lot of levels what we're doing is very DIY/basic.



... do you work alone with your raceway and coral's or you have a business partner and employee's? ... I'm one of the employees. While my actual job title continues to be a subject of great speculation and mirth, the least offensive ... hehe ... is probably warehouse manager (although my personal favorite is staff biologist). The only write-up of us that I've seen online is here:
http://glassbox-design.com/2009/fragfarmer-crew-goes-wholesale-with-route-66-marine/


HTH
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

WOW Gary, so you getting coral from ACF too? man, how co-incident is that? i do have some zoas from them too but i'm in OZ.

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Page 38 nutrient scrubbing race way ... Ahhhh ... now I get it. :D

While I haven't toyed around with the 'maze' geometry that Calfo's diagram shows, I have used 4' 6"X6" rain glutters to try to get at the same effect. They ended up operating as something common to the food aquaculture industry ... settlement trays. Lots of easily removable sediment & detritus accumulation, but poor polyp (Zoanthus, not Aiptasia) growth, a lot of "wasted" lighting investment (even with 4 gutters placed side by side), and no significant nutrient reduction (although I did see a slight reduction in turbidity).



JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


WOW Gary, so you getting coral from ACF too? man, how co-incident is that? i do have some zoas from them too but i'm in OZ.We really do need to get an acronym conversion page ... ACF? But maybe my brain is just ignoring an obvious one ... we use many Australian suppliers & collectors. It's the way we get consistently high quality livestock. I'm always bemused when folks speculate about our sources ... [sound game show rejection buzzer] ...

... next contestant, please. :lol: :D

Who knew that God decided to localize all the really cool "LPS" mycosporine-like amino acid, fluorescent pigment, and chromoprotein DNA in Australia? I spent the last decade doing the typical Indonesian, Fijian, Tongan, and Malaysian coral cherry-picking boogaloo in the aisles of the 104th street wholesalers. I never saw anything even remotely like what we get on a weekly basis ...

... it's mind-boggling. :frogjump:

Anyway, this thread degenerating into an "importation source" thread is the last thing I want it to do. The prime reasons that I even started it (... aside from not disrupting amashun's excellent tank thread ...) is that eventually I want to talk about the best way to (A) collect pelagic larva from such systems, and (B) how best to insert "passive" gastropod propagation apparatus into it (... one of the things we're really missing here at RSF is some DIY propagation toy diagrams & the protocols to go with them). Running parallel to that is the question of what pathways might be developed for folks who run systems like these to support individual hobbyist propagation activities. In order to do that, folks needed to understand the hardware configuration.



JMO
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

i think i should stop all the off topic questions from now on. but sorry, last one i promise. This is ACF site and they always mention about you guys:
http://www.australiancoralfarms.com.au/home

my system is no where near as good as yours Gary ;)

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


Yeah RK2 is great equipment I will use it in my greenhouse when I build it. ...Ohhhh ... don't get me started on this. While RK2 does put out reasonable products & is run by good people, when we did the hard number analysis for hardware selection, RK2 was quickly rejected as being cost inefficient. Subject to your specific design requirements, you're probably going to find that "mixing & matching" various hardware components from a variety of manufacturers is a much more cost effective way to go ... although hunting down specific suppliers and insuring complete inter-component compatability does take an additional time investment.


JMO
:thumbsup:

[GaryWhite]

Greetings All !


i think i should stop all the off topic questions from now on. ... No, no, no ... that's not what I meant. :wallbash: :smashcomp:

I'm loving this conversation ... please don't back away from it ... it's just that areas that touch on "sources" can be extremely sensitive, and potentially problematic on both personal and "political" levels. Besides, I'm not at all sure that "sources" topics are fully within the mission of RSF (although such topics are clearly related), and the hardware & operational stuff is much more interesting anyway ...

... :lol:



Apologies if anything in my previous posts was offensive.
:thumbsup:

[amashun]

Gary, i'm not offended at all so no apologies needed!!

I just got a bit excited overall so i may step onto the board line too :D

A

[BrianPlankis]

Greetings All !
Anyway, this thread degenerating into an "importation source" thread is the last thing I want it to do. The prime reasons that I even started it (... aside from not disrupting amashun's excellent tank thread ...) is that eventually I want to talk about the best way to (A) collect pelagic larva from such systems, and (B) how best to insert "passive" gastropod propagation apparatus into it (... one of the things we're really missing here at RSF is some DIY propagation toy diagrams & the protocols to go with them). Running parallel to that is the question of what pathways might be developed for folks who run systems like these to support individual hobbyist propagation activities. In order to do that, folks needed to understand the hardware configuration.
JMO
:thumbsup:

Gary,

If you don't mind, please put this suggestion in a new thread in our "Suggest RSF improvements" forum, perfect opportunity to use it:

http://www.reefstewardshipfoundation.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28

We are hoping to have some Trochus protocols in formal form later this year or early next year (once the snails cooperate).

Brian

["Umm, fish?"]

eventually I want to talk about the best way to (A) collect pelagic larva from such systems,

A large overflow box with a huge (so you minimize the flow per square inch on the screen), insertable downweller. Easily reduceable flow from return pump for times when you want to collect.